Rudy Giuliani appeared on Sunday’s ABC This Week With George Stephanopoulos
Here is a complete transcript of Rudy defending Trump:
STEPHANOPOULOS: And we are joined now by President Trump's current attorney Rudy Giuliani. Mayor, thanks for joining us this morning.
You just saw Michael Cohen right there. He says the president directed him to arrange the payments. The president knew it was wrong and he was trying to help his campaign. Your response?
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYER: Pathetic. The man is pathetic. That's a lawyer you were interviewing and he says he -- oh, he directed me to do it and, oh my goodness, he directed me. He's a lawyer. He's the guy you depend on to determine whether or not you should do it this way or that way, whether you're Donald Trump or you are me or you, I have...
STEPHANOPOULOS: He's saying the president knew it was wrong and directed him to do it anyway.
GIULIANI: Well, the president said that's false. And he said it was false under oath. He said it was false in his tape recorded conversation with Chris Cuomo. He said it was false on five other tape recorded conversations. He said on those tape recorded conversations that he did it on his own to start and then he brought it to the president and then the president reimbursed him.
Clear as a bell under oath, must have said it 10 times.
OK, now he says the opposite. You're going to tell me which is the truth? I think I know what the truth is. But unless you're god, this man you will never know what the truth is. He lies to fit the situation he's in.
STEPHANOPOULOS: The Southern District seems to be backing him up. I want to up on the screen a sentence from the sentencing memo. They write, with respect to both payments, Cohen acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual one. That’s in their own words. Of course individual one, the president.
GIULIANI: Yes, but there’d be no way they would know that other than taking Cohen’s word for it. I mean, the conversations they had, even that tape recorded conversation that we listened to is just the two of them. So --
STEPHANOPOULOS: But they wouldn’t write that if they didn’t have corroborating evidence, would they?
GIULIANI: They don't have corroborating evidence. I’m sure. They don’t have corroborating evidence. Plus, they didn’t let Cohen plead guilty to a conspiracy. I ran that office. I know what they do. If I’m going to use a cooperator, I make them plead guilty to a conspiracy. Because then when he goes on the witness stand, I’m able to say this -- this is who we fill in as the co-conspirator. He pleads guilty to an individual crime, that isn't even a crime, he's going to be ripped apart on the witness stand. Can you imagine what would happen on the witness stand?
This is a guy who stood up in court and said I’m fiercely -- I was fiercely loyal to Donald Trump, that’s why I did it, I was fiercely loyal to him. No he wasn't. He was taping him surreptitiously, lying to him. His client. That’s outrageous. Can you imagine how a jury’s going to react to that?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well that's not the only evidence they have, though. The other evidence they have, of course, they’ve also cut a deal with David Pecker and AMI. And from the statement of facts on that deal, they talk about an August 2015 meeting between David Pecker, Michael Cohen and an individual from the campaign believed to be President Trump. Here's what they say.
At the meeting, Pecker offered to help deal with negative stories about that presidential candidate’s relationship with women by, among other things, assisting the campaign in identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoided. Pecker agreed to keep Cohen apprised of any such negative stories. So it’s not just Michael Cohen, it’s David Pecker, it’s AMI.
GIULIANI: And that's why David Pecker got immunity. And that’s why Corsi doesn’t get immunity, because Corsi won’t say what they want him to say. So I don't know. I don't know how true that is.
So you’ve got a -- you’ve got a serial liar who taped his own client and lied about it and deceived him and taped about 10 reporters and lied to them and deceived them and you got a guy who’s been given complete immunity --
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you just said you ran that office. You know how the Southern District is run. You know exactly how the Southern District is run.
GIULIANI: No, I don’t know -- actually, I don’t know how the Southern District --
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: They wouldn’t have put that in the statement of fact if they didn’t believe --
GIULIANI: I’m disgusted with the Southern District. I’m going to tell you another thing. You see what we’re talking about? It’s not a crime. It’s not a crime, George. Paying -- paying $130,000 to Stormy whatever and paying $130,000 to the other one is not a crime. The Edwards case determined that. She was paid a million one to be a no-show in his campaign.
STEPHANOPOULOS: As you know, Mayor, the Edwards case is actually quite different. The judge in that case said that if --
GIULIANI: (Inaudible) --
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- payment --
GIULIANI: George, it’s not the judge, it’s the FEC. The FEC ruled on the Edwards case before they prosecuted it. The FEC ruled it’s no violation of the campaign finance law. The Justice Department went ahead and prosecuted it anyway and they were embarrassed.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And the judge said that if it was in part to help the campaign, that would be illegal. You're right that the jury did not convict John Edwards --
GIULIANI: No. No. No. No. No.
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- but the evidence in this case is actually quite different.
GIULIANI: Wrong, wrong, wrong instruction. It has to be for the sole purpose. If there's another purpose, it's no longer a campaign contribution. If there’s a personal purpose. Now think about this. Suppose he tried to use his campaign funds to pay off Stormy Daniels. It would be totally illegal. If it’s not a campaign expense, it can’t be a campaign contribution. These are not campaign contributions.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But the corporate -- the corporate contribution from AMI would be clearly illegal.
GIULIANI: No -- no it would not be. It's not a contribution. It's not a contribution. If it’s intended for a purpose in addition to the campaign purpose. In the case of Rio Hunter, right, the payment of $1.1 million was intended to shut her up and was intended to avoid embarrassment with his wife and with his children. Now, which is worse?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes, but what --
GIULIANI: The campaign problem or the wife and children.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But what you did -- that’s -- that’s that case. Let’s talk about the president’s case.
GIULIANI: Same thing.
STEPHANOPOULOS: No, it’s not the same thing.
GIULIANI: Yes it is.
STEPHANOPOULOS: In this case you have contemporaneous witnesses saying it was for the campaign, you have a statement of facts saying the president met -- Donald Trump met with David Pecker a year before -- right after the campaign --
GIULIANI: And I -- and I can produce -- I can produce an enormous number of witnesses that say the president was very concerned about how this was going to affect his children, his marriage, not just this one but similar -- all those women came forward at that point in time, that -- that tape with Billy Bush and all of that. It's all part of the same thing. And I know what he was concerned about and I can produce 20 witnesses to tell you what he was concerned about.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Two weeks before the campaign?
GIULIANI: Damn right. And he was -- he was concerned about all of it. How do you think that --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Did he ever make any payments like that in the past?
GIULIANI: Nobody else asked for -- in the past, I can't speak to. I wasn’t his lawyer in the past. But at that point, these were the only two that were asking for money. And the amount of money is consistent with harassment, not truth. I have been involved in cases like this. When it’s true and you have the kind of money the president had, it's a $1 million settlement. When it's not true, when it’s a harassment settlement and it’s not true, you give them $130,000, $150,000. They went away for so little money that it indicates their case was very, very weak.
And look, Stormy Daniels now has to pay the president legal fees. I mean, it’s -- this is ridiculous.
STEPHANOPOULOS: This is --
GIULIANI: And they’re -- and they’re going around with this -- and you’re talking about all these other investigations. I’m telling you, George, they’re going to go try to look for unpaid parking tickets and see if they can nail him for unpaid parking tickets.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, as you know, the Southern District said this is far more serious than an unpaid parking ticket. They said this strikes at the heart of our democratic system …
GIULIANI: Oh – oh, right. A campaign finance violation? Give me a break. Obama paid, what, $2 million in fines for campaign – this is a $200 payment. How come Obama wasn’t treated the same way …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Those were reporting violations but why didn’t …
GIULIANI: No, they weren’t.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Some false …
GIULIANI: No, they were not reporting violations. He has people who donated to him that don’t exist. They do not exist. They’re not human beings.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Here’s the question I have for you. Why do you have so much trouble with the southern district? The southern district’s being run – this case being run by Robert Khuzami, a Republican appointed by the Trump administration, spoke at the Republican …
GIULIANI: His interpretation of the campaign finance law is completely erroneous. And to be – even if – and even if you want to make some argument that there’s some validity to it, you do not pursue a president of the United States for a questionable interpretation of the statute. That is completely wrong, it’s harassment. This is – this special prosecutor was there for collusion. Then he went to obstruction. Campaign finance.
STEPHANOPOULOS: This isn’t the special prosecutor, this is the southern district of …
GIULIANI: I know but where did it come from? It is refer – and who is on top? Rosenstein’s on top. He’s on top of both. So these things are connected. Why were they both in court? They’re passing the guy back and forth. Cohen is trying to figure out – now that he got the three years where he got slammed by the southern district …
STEPHANOPOULOS: He did.
GIULIANI: … For not cooperating, which means he’s lying. So he’s – they believe him on this and he’s lying about that. That doesn’t work that way.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Special counsel …
GIULIANI: I guarantee you this man never gets in front of a jury. Never. And that’s why he didn’t plead guilty to conspiracy.
STEPHANOPOULOS: The special counsel does believe him. And I asked Michael Cohen …
GIULIANI: Of course. He believes anybody that tells him something about the president. They told Corsi – they wrote out a statement for him, a three-page statement, implicating the president. And they said, if you – if you recite this – if you recite this, you get probation. Go free. This is your jail free card. Of course, he said go to hell. And he …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you think Jerome Corsi’s your best witness? He’s the guy who questioned whether 9/11 was an inside job.
GIULIANI: He’s not my witness. I don’t even know Jerome Corsi. Never met him. I’m just telling what they did to him. That’s a setup. They setup Flynn. Look what they did with Flynn. At the direction of Comey, who says he wouldn’t have gotten away with it if it was an experienced administration, meaning he wouldn’t have gotten away with unethical behavior. He tells them to not – don’t tell him he has to have a lawyer, or he should have a lawyer.
They put Flynn through questioning and he says something wrong and they got a document there that contradicts it. If they were searching for the truth, they’d show him the document and they’d say, General, does this refresh your recollection? Tell us the rest of it now. But they weren’t. They hid it so they could jam him for perjury. And now you’ve got the FBI saying he told the truth and you’ve got …
STEPHANOPOULOS: That’s not what the FBI says. The FBI says that he didn’t have the characteristics of somebody who was deceiving even though they believed he was deceiving.
GIULIANI: No. Just the opposite. Strzok. Strzok – Peter Strzok wrote in one of his texts that he didn’t seem to be – he didn’t seem to be lying, wasn’t acting like a person …
STEPHANOPOULOS: He didn’t show the characteristics and body language of someone who lied …
GIULIANI: He didn’t--.
STEPHANOPOULOS: … Even though they believed he was lying.
GIULIANI: And Comey reported at the time that they didn’t believe that he was lying, way back when it was going on.
STEPHANOPOULOS: He disagrees with that.
GIULIANI: And then – so – so we have not lying, we have prosecution were lying, and we have no explanation. We have no explanation in the middle. But we do have a guy that was deprived of counsel, we do have a guy that was not shown a document that could have refreshed his recollection because they had it hidden under the table so they could come back and jam him. That’s what I talk about when I say perjury trap. And actually had to be very careful with unethical process …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let’s talk a little bit …
GIULIANI: And they’re doing that.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let’s talk a little bit more about the special counsel. I want to show what Michael Cohen said about Russia and the special counsel.
(VIDEO BEGINS)
STEPHANOPOULOS: The special counsel did say you were doing your best to tell the truth about everything related to their investigation, everything related to Russia. Do you think President Trump is telling the truth about that?
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER LAWYER TO DONALD TRUMP: No.
(VIDEO ENDS)
STEPHANOPOULOS: Now, the special counsel went on to say that they found Cohen credible, provided valuable information about Russia-related matters for its investigation, also that his contacts with persons connected to the White House in 2017 and 2018, they seem to be getting at, there, both collusion and obstruction.
GIULIANI: Isn’t that prosecution by innuendo? I have no idea what they’re talking about. Beyond what you just said, I have no idea what they’re talking about …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, let me ask you a few specifics.
GIULIANI: I have no – I have no idea – I know that collusion is not a crime. It was over with by the time of the election. I don’t know what evidence …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, let me ask you specifically – let me ask you a few specific questions, then …
GIULIANI: If it didn’t happen, I can’t imagine how (inaudible) …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Did the president – did Donald Trump know that Michael Cohen was pursuing the Trump Tower in Moscow into the summer of 2016?
GIULIANI: According to the answer that he gave, it would have covered all the way up to – covered up to November, 2016. Said he had conversations with him but the president didn’t hide this. They know …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Earlier they had said those conversations stopped in January, 2016.
GIULIANI: I don’t -- I mean, the date -- I mean, until you actually sit down and you look at the questions, and you go back and you look at the papers and you look at the -- the -- you’re not going to know what happened. That’s why -- that’s why lawyers, you know, prepare for those answers.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK. Then let me ask a second -- a second question, did the president know about Don Jr.’s Trump Tower meeting with the Russians at the time?
GIULIANI: No. That is -- that is definitely he didn’t know about it and I think that’s consistent testimony, even Cohen. At one time, Lanny Davis went out saying that Cohen could be able to contradict that. They had to withdraw that in an embarrassing faux pas.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And did Roger Stone ever give the president a heads-up on WikiLeaks’ leaks -- leaks concerning Hillary Clinton, the DNC?
GIULIANI: No, he didn’t.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Not at all?
GIULIANI: No. I don’t believe so. But again, if Roger Stone gave anybody a heads-up about WikiLeaks’ leaks, that’s not a crime. It would be like giving him a heads-up that the Times is going to print something. One the -- the crime -- this is why this thing is so weird, strange -- the crime is conspiracy to hack; collusion is not a crime, it doesn’t exist.
STEPHANOPOULOS: No. Conspiracy to defraud the government, you’re right, conspiracy to hack that is the crime. We don’t know whether …
GIULIANI: Yes. Did Donald Trump engage in a conspiracy to hack with the Russians? They’ve been going at it. The counterintelligence investigation came to the conclusion no evidence. They are grasping for straws now.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, they’re also looking at obstruction. Did anyone connected to the president ever suggest in any way to Michael Cohen that he would get a pardon if he stayed on the team?
GIULIANI: I had this specific conversation with his lawyers and that liar can say what he wants, I told his lawyers there will be no discussion of a pardon. That doesn’t mean the president doesn’t have the -- nobody’s giving away any power, but do not consider it in your thinking now. It has nothing about what you should decide about yourself. I think that’s one of the reasons why he double-crossed.
STEPHANOPOULOS: CNN and The New York Times reporting this week that you’re still in discussions with Robert Mueller about whether the -- about an interview with the president, are those discussions still going on?
GIULIANI: I’m actually not allowed to -- to say that. But -- but the agreement we had did contemplate that there’d be a period of time after the questions that we would have a discussion about whether there should be any further questions. So I’m not saying we are or we aren’t, but that’s in the agreement.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And -- and -- and President Trump isn’t that secret person who was discussed in court on Friday?
GIULIANI: No, absolutely not.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So he’s not received a subpoena?
GIULIANI: No, if they’re -- if -- if he is then we’ve got some outrageous violation of legal ethics. We’ve got to be served with papers if they’re -- now, we might be under seal but we’re not. We’re not under seal on anything.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So is it -- is it still possible the president’s going to talk to Robert Mueller?
GIULIANI: All I can tell you is the agreement contemplates our having discussions if there are any further follow-ups or questions, and there’s been no change in that agreement. And when it’s concluded, we’ll -- we’ll tell you. I have to say, quite honestly, watching some of the things they’re doing like letting Cohen get up and say he was fiercely loyal to Donald Trump, even though at the very time he was fiercely loyal to him he was taping him and lying to him, something a lawyer never does, he was never fiercely loyal to Donald Trump. He’s fiercely loyal to him -- to himself and excused …
STEPHANOPOULOS: He was in the past.
GIULIANI: … Oh, he -- I have a client and I’m fiercely loyal to him, and I tape him, and I hide it and I don’t tell him? That’s not fiercely loyal. That’s called fiercely disloyal. He’s the opposite. It shows all I’m thinking about is me, my own skin. And the Southern District says you can get out of jail if you do this, you’ve got three years now. There’s a real motivation to sing like crazy. He’s got to do a lot of singing to get out of the three years and he will say whatever he has to say. He’s changed his story four or five times.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So has the president.
GIULIANI: The president’s not under oath. And the president tried to do the best he can to remember what happened back at a time when he was the busiest man in the world. And I can’t -- I was with him most of that time, I can’t remember a lot of the stuff that goes on there. But …
STEPHANOPOULOS: Final question …
GIULIANI: … But boy, if it’s -- same way, if I go under oath, then I really think about it and I really say -- you know, I can’t remember that. I -- I was wrong about who was with me on September 11th. I always thought the Fire Commissioner was with me in the building we were trapped in. Turns out later, he tells me, I met you after. That happens when you’re in the middle of difficult events; you know that from experiencing it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I do know that from my time in the White House. Final question: Mueller almost done?
GIULIANI: He is done. I don't know what else -- I told you. No, the only thing left are the parking tickets and jaywalking.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Thank you. Thanks for your time this morning.
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