But the special counsel during the Clinton presidency considers lying to the American people by the president is a serious issue that has to be explored
Here is a transcript from Sunday’s ABC This Week in which host Martha Raddatz interviewed former special counsel Ken Starr and ABC’s chief legal analyst Dan Abrams:
RADDATZ: Now let's turn back to the Mueller investigation and bring in Ken Starr, who served as the independent counsel who investigated Bill Clinton, and ABC News chief legal analyst Dan Abrams.
I want to start with you, Mr. Starr. Do these revelations make an obstruction of justice charge more likely?
KEN STARR, FORMER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: I don't think so. The president has every -- and Senator Graham said it very well. He can fire Jim Comey or he can ask for Mueller to be fired for any reason. I have a different view in terms of what would constitute obstruction of justice. The president's power is extremely broad, as long as he's not engaged in discrimination or accepting bribes and the like.
I have a very different perspective and much more robust view of presidential power than many of the folks who have been speaking to this. But that having been said, it would have been extremely unwise -- and Senator Graham once again hit the nail on the head.
It would have signaled all -- it would have been Armageddon. So I’m very glad that the president took Don McGhan’s -- if -- if -- if the story is true, took the advice. This -- the president is not just frustrated, as Senator Graham said, he’s a fighter. His instinct is to fight. If you’re an enemy -- and I’m afraid that’s the way he intends to view Mr. Mueller or at least some of the people around Mr. Mueller -- then he’s going to -- he’s going to fight. He’s going to lash out.
The question is does that really constitute a crime. And I don’t think so.
RADDATZ: OK, I know that the prosecutors would have to show corrupt intent, so I don’t understand why this doesn’t show that. Explain that.
STARR: He’s very open about it. I don’t like this guy. (inaudible) he just said (ph) look, he’s trying to ruin my presidency. I have the right to engage in self defense. I don’t see that as corrupt. I just don’t. Corruption -- in fact, no one’s suggested, to my knowledge, that Richard Nixon engaged in a crime by firing Archibald Cox. He did engage in crimes.
Obstruction of justice, but that had to do with hush money and the like. There’s no suggestion of that. We just have a Trump Tower set of ethics here and that is what we’re seeing in the president. I hope that he will control that more in the remaining years of his term. But I think we’re seeing here business tactics. I just don’t see the corruption. He’s so transparent. He tells everyone look, I want to get rid of this guy.
He’s a -- you know, he’s a thorn in my flesh.
RADDATZ: OK, Dan Abrams. I know you’re shaking your head. I -- I tend to think you don’t agree with that.
DAN ABRAMS, CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Yes. I mean, the question isn’t does firing Robert Mueller -- would firing Robert Mueller be a crime. That’s not the question. The question is would firing Robert Mueller -- does trying to fire Robert Mueller potentially become a piece in an obstruction case. You put that together, potentially, with the firing of James Comey.
Why? These conversations that he had with the director of the CIA, the director of National Intelligence, at the time, the director of the FBI. And if the goal in all of those cases was simply to end the investigation on him and his campaign, that’s a different issue. So I think to just simply say in a vacuum, "The president can fire or order the firing of Robert Mueller if he so chooses, that’s not a crime." That’s true but it’s also not the relevant question here.
RADDATZ: Mr. Starr, what about that pattern of behavior? We’ve been talking about that all morning.
STARR: I think the pattern is totally consistent with I don’t like the guy. He is in my face and I just don’t see that as corruption. And I don’t think that those who have been saying this is obstruction of justice have come forward with persuasive authority and have not addressed what I view as a fundamental question, the power of the presidency. Now, the power of the presidency has a huge check.
I don’t think it should be the criminal (ph) law unless there’s bribery and that sort of thing. It should be the Congress of the United States. We wildly over-criminalize and I just disagree. I have great respect for Dan, but I just disagree with this whole approach of let’s criminalize everything.
ABRAMS: But it’s not even about --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: It’s the same thing that you did when you were the independent counsel, right? I mean, you basically created articles of impeachment based on law. I’m not saying that should happen here. Right? We have to wait and see. But you basically created a series of articles of impeachment based on legal standards and you said, "This is where I think the law was violated."
So it’s inevitably combined when you’re talking about what the legal standard is and what the potential impact would be. And I think to simply suggest that the president can fire these people for whatever reason he wants isn’t the standard that you yourself would apply.
STARR: Dan, with all due respect, re-read the referral. I drafted no articles of impeachment, for starters. But the referral that we made with respect to President Clinton had to do with perjury and intimidating witnesses or encouraging witnesses to lie. Now, if we’re talking about encouraging witnesses to lie, then we have -- in (ph) a lawsuit. There’s been no lawsuit that I know about. This was an interference with exactly what Senator Graham was talking about.
Namely, the rule of law. I think what we’re talking about here is something entirely different. It’s a horse of a different color. And --
RADDATZ: Mr. Starr -- Mr. Starr, I want to -- I want to jump in, here. I want to ask you about -- you talked about lying, you talked about President Clinton. I want to ask you about President Trump’s public denial that he’d -- he had even thought of firing Robert Mueller.
One of the reasons you cited is grounds for impeachment against President Clinton was Clinton’s public denials of having sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. You wrote the president made and caused to be made false statements to the American people about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky by publicly and emphatically stating in January 1998 that I did not have sexual relations with that woman, and these allegations are false.
The president also effectively delayed a possible congressional inquiry. This represents substantial and credible (ph) information that may constitute grounds for an impeachment. If the reports are correct that President Trump sought to have Mueller fired, then his public denial would be false.
So would that be grounds for impeachment?
STARR: I think lying to the American people is a serious issue that has to be explored. I take lying to the American people very, very seriously. So absolutely, I think – what Dan was talking about was this effort to get rid of the investigation.
You’re now talking about something called lying to the American people, and I think that is something that Bob Mueller should look at.
RADDATZ: Dan, a final though?
ABRAMS: Yes, I mean I just can’t imagine that – that Mr. Starr doesn’t believe that there is some sort of investigation on a president that if that president wanted to end it, just for that reason, that he wouldn’t say that’s a potential legal slash potential impeachment problem.
There has to be a level which you can reach where you say the president isn’t allowed to just end investigations into him just because that’s presidential power.
RADDATZ: OK, we’re going to have to leave it there.
STARR: Dan – no, but Dan –
RADDATZ: Very quickly, go ahead.
STARR: Dan has made my point. Dan has made my point. We’re talking about impeachment, we’re not talking about the court house. That’s my distinction.
RADDATZ: OK, thanks very much to both of you.
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